Pic of the Day

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KW Mitchell
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by KW Mitchell » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:55 pm

DMCK7 Fan wrote: If you look closely just before her sponson/ and or nose hits the water there is what looks like a small plume exiting the nozzle again, could this be the engine tryng to re-ignite ?
Dr Happian-Smith in his concluding remarks to the 2001 Inquest included the following:

'---- The small vapour trail visible in mid-somersault was probably due to water spilt from the sump of the craft onto the hot engine. It might have been due to the engine trying to restart but this is unlikely.'

Ref. The Blue Bird Years, P.203.

The rotation of the craft in mid-air would be accompanied by considerable centrifugal forces, which would have flung any loose material to it's extremities; water in the bilges would have been thrown-out of the tail, some inevitably contacting the outer surface of the jetpipe (Temp. 3-400deg's C).

jonwrightk7
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by jonwrightk7 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:36 pm

drawing on k w mitchells post earlier, in steve holters transcript of the cockpit tape; thirteen seconds from impact donald remarks "and shes lost........ getting a lot of bloody row in here. could this relate to the compressor blades stalling? also quoting a report issued by bristol siddeley, direct to the project: "At the proposed maximum speed of 325 knots the intake will be approximately matched. (that is AO/AI=1) therefore care should be taken in throtteling back to avoid "bucketing" associated with intake spilling and pre-entry separation at the intake ramp". thats a tad over my head but what i think it means is that at the speeds donald reached on the final run, any throttlling back could cause the engine to "choke" on the sheer volume of air it was ingesting. a bit of a double edged sword really, your in serious stability trouble and you need to slow down. but if you do slow down, the loss of down force on the front planing shoes could be catastrophic! not a nice decision for anyone to have to make. even an exceptionnaly brave one.
The world is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, then steal your dreams..

DMCK7 Fan

Re: Pic of the Day

Post by DMCK7 Fan » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:39 pm

'could this be ? ', 'probably due' and 'might have been'.
We will never know for sure but interesting none the less.

KW Mitchell
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by KW Mitchell » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:10 pm

jonwrightk7 wrote:drawing on k w mitchells post earlier, in steve holters transcript of the cockpit tape; thirteen seconds from impact donald remarks "and shes lost........ getting a lot of bloody row in here. could this relate to the compressor blades stalling? also quoting a report issued by bristol siddeley, direct to the project: "At the proposed maximum speed of 325 knots the intake will be approximately matched. (that is AO/AI=1) therefore care should be taken in throtteling back to avoid "bucketing" associated with intake spilling and pre-entry separation at the intake ramp". thats a tad over my head but what i think it means is that at the speeds donald reached on the final run, any throttlling back could cause the engine to "choke" on the sheer volume of air it was ingesting ------
Jon,

I would be very much interested to read that Bristol Siddeley Report - could you give me a reference to it please?

As to the 'technical bit' it is possible to explain it reasonably simply if we examine the diagram below. Gas turbine physics is explained by a universal convention which uses 'stations' i.e. positions in the turbine duct. These are numbered '0' through '9' (see diagram). As the duct is closed i.e. it has an inlet and an outlet, it is possible to work out the velocities, temp's and pressures at each station and calculate factors such as mass flow, nozzle velocity and overall efficiency of each stage and the engine as a whole.

Now it is also important to know some critical cross-sectional areas, inlet area and nozzle area being two examples. 'A0' in your example above is the area at station '0' which is just in front of the engine and is taken to be that where the air is undisturbed and flows smoothly into the inlet area 'A1' at station '1'.

Now I do know after examining BB's inlet ducts - and with confirmation from Bill - that those ducts have constant area up to the face of the compressor. I think then that we can assume that 'A1' is also the same as 'A2' (a fact which I would like to confirm from your ref.).

This leads to the term ' --------- approximately matched ---------' but only at the quoted speed because everything changes when the airspeed changes. If the throttling back is too rapid there will be a huge build-up of air in the inlet duct which will cause 'bucketing' and 'overspill' - not too difficult to understand, I think. There will inevitably be a breakdown in streamline flow i.e. turbulence in the inlet with associated problems inputting the compressor and the possibility of local stalling and 'surging' (the phenomonen I described in the original note).

However, I do not think it is the reason for ' ---------- the bloody row ------------' referred to by DC as that was the phase at approx. 300mph and BB still accelerating. Throttling back - or whatever caused the reduction in power - occurred later in the episode. Also when a jet engine surges it's deafening; it would have come through the RT and would have been heard by observers on the lakeside.

However, the explanation of that 'bloody row' is still intriguing ------------. Was it because BB was getting such a pummeling or was it the results of spray droplets hitting the compressor blades (DC also reports that he ' ------- can't see anything ------' so any spray that was obscuring the canopy would inevitably ended in the inlets)?

Or what about that front engine tie-bar having let go during this episode and not during the crash - a theory well argued by Bill but rejected at the analysis at the inquest. I've seen that adjustable rod on the replacement engine and despite it's high tensile rating looks awfy flimsy -------. If that had failed then there would have been a right racket and some nasty thrustline oscillations!

In conclusion, a personal comment; the more that I dig into the history of K7, it's development, operation and subsequent modifications - and - the interactions with the main players surrounding it and the situation(s) associated with it's final demise, I become less comfortable with conventional theories as to what happened. It's not that I reject them - certainly not - but there is enough there to sustain further examination and comment. This is only an attempt to get at the truth, and many I'm sure, share that goal.

And there's enough in this mystery to sustain us.

Keith
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klingon
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by klingon » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:27 pm

Keith with reference to the front engine tie bar failure -would this have contributed to the lifting of K7's nose by acting basically as a vectored thrust engine due to torque reaction and movement of the tailpipe?-
"I hate two faced people-don't know which face to punch first!"

KW Mitchell
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by KW Mitchell » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:38 pm

klingon wrote:Keith with reference to the front engine tie bar failure -would this have contributed to the lifting of K7's nose by acting basically as a vectored thrust engine due to torque reaction and movement of the tailpipe?-
When the Orpheus was fitted, we know that Leo Villa and Ken Norris made the adjustments to the alignment. Jet engines produce thrust directly down the central axis so, theoretically, the engine should have been aligned to BB's central axis. The tie-bar is threaded with an adjustable turnbuckle and we know that LV made the adjustments while KN indicated a 'small amount' of down-thrust (how much is not recorded) so that the nose-down couple was increased.

If that tie-bar failed due to the buffeting and consequent pitching in the final run, the engine could rock on the main mounting gimbals. It would not need to be much to contribute alternately up- and down-thrust, the effects of which can only be imagined ---------------!
Keith

jonwrightk7
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by jonwrightk7 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:18 pm

hi all with ref to mr mitchells request for a ref to the report issued to the project. I quote Steve Holters excellent book leap in to legend " report no PP/INST/131" may be worth contacting Mr Holter direct for more information.
The world is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, then steal your dreams..

KW Mitchell
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:37 am

Re: Pic of the Day

Post by KW Mitchell » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:41 pm

jonwrightk7 wrote:hi all with ref to mr mitchells request for a ref to the report issued to the project. I quote Steve Holters excellent book leap in to legend " report no PP/INST/131" may be worth contacting Mr Holter direct for more information.
Thankyou - that's very helpful.

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rob565uk
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by rob565uk » Fri May 01, 2009 11:38 am

Fri 1st May - What a superb Pic of the Day!

I had to look twice to convince myself that I am looking at the rebuild and not the original.

This picture seem to sum up how well resources have been used, the tremendous achievements of the whole Team and the sheer dedication and hard work they are continuing to provide.

On the debate about whether these Pics should be daily, I am on the same page as Bill Smith- keep them daily to attract regular visitors and, with a bit of luck, inspire more Sponsors and helpers.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Pic of the Day

Post by Renegadenemo » Fri May 01, 2009 9:04 pm

Kind comments indeed and it's always a warm feeling when what we're trying to achieve here is appreciated by others. We've set out to run the project professionally but without waste and it's amazing what can be achieved. We have no one on wages, no expensive hangers-on or bureaucrats sapping the project. It's run by enthusiasts for anyone who wants to get involved and it works. Oh, and it's the best fun in the world...
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

I have wrought my simple plan
If I give one hour of joy
To the boy who’s half a man,
Or the man who’s half a boy.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

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